Finals Results

Views: 2126 Posts: 68
Interested
wrote on 24-Aug-19 17:02

So what were todays results?

Full Mohamed
wrote on 24-Aug-19 17:08

Uh oh...

Turf
wrote on 24-Aug-19 18:01

It’s good seeing teams play on a good pitch. Both first grade games entertaining and both fair results which no one can argue about the refs.

Hahaha
wrote on 24-Aug-19 18:02

SL2 Pats won 3-1 Epping won on penalties SL1 Pats won about 5-3 Redbacks won 2-1

Knobheads
wrote on 24-Aug-19 18:08

So those knobhead dragons are gone ????????????

Firsts
wrote on 24-Aug-19 19:01

I saw the ref in Ryde Redbacks game make a blunder when ruled Redbacks player offside but otherwise good game and luckily didn’t effect the result.

Mark Clattenberg
wrote on 24-Aug-19 19:02

shithouse Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Turf Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > It’s good seeing teams play on a good pitch. > > Both first grade games entertaining and both > fair > > results which no one can argue about the refs. > > > the ref in reserve grade was shit Which game? Juice didn't make any controversial calls from what I saw in the Pats vs Uni game...

Agree
wrote on 24-Aug-19 19:03

Yep ref in dragons v epping was shit. For both teams mind you but still terrible, could have ruined what was a great match otherwise

re: refs
wrote on 24-Aug-19 19:04

The other bloke Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Mark Clattenberg Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > shithouse Wrote: > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > ----- > > > Turf Wrote: > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > ----- > > > > It’s good seeing teams play on a good > > pitch. > > > > Both first grade games entertaining and > both > > > fair > > > > results which no one can argue about the > > refs. > > > > > > > > > the ref in reserve grade was shit > > > > Which game? Juice didn't make any controversial > > calls from what I saw in the Pats vs Uni > game... > > > Yeah the ref in that game seemed to do alright, > but the epping v dragons bloke. Lost control at > times and had poor responses or none at all for > some of the challenges. > > I was trying to keep an eye on both games but > heard more coming from the epping v dragons game > which kept me looking at their game. Good game to > watch actually Do you know all the refs Mark?

shithouse
wrote on 24-Aug-19 19:04

Turf Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > It’s good seeing teams play on a good pitch. > Both first grade games entertaining and both fair > results which no one can argue about the refs. the ref in reserve grade was shit

Mark Clattenberg
wrote on 24-Aug-19 19:08

re: refs Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > The other bloke Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Mark Clattenberg Wrote: > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > ----- > > > shithouse Wrote: > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > ----- > > > > Turf Wrote: > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > ----- > > > > > It’s good seeing teams play on a good > > > pitch. > > > > > Both first grade games entertaining and > > both > > > > fair > > > > > results which no one can argue about the > > > refs. > > > > > > > > > > > > the ref in reserve grade was shit > > > > > > Which game? Juice didn't make any > controversial > > > calls from what I saw in the Pats vs Uni > > game... > > > > > > Yeah the ref in that game seemed to do alright, > > but the epping v dragons bloke. Lost control at > > times and had poor responses or none at all for > > some of the challenges. > > > > I was trying to keep an eye on both games but > > heard more coming from the epping v dragons > game > > which kept me looking at their game. Good game > to > > watch actually > > > Do you know all the refs Mark? I won't be disclosing them to you mate if that's what you're implying

The other bloke
wrote on 24-Aug-19 19:09

Mark Clattenberg Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > shithouse Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Turf Wrote: > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > ----- > > > It’s good seeing teams play on a good > pitch. > > > Both first grade games entertaining and both > > fair > > > results which no one can argue about the > refs. > > > > > > the ref in reserve grade was shit > > Which game? Juice didn't make any controversial > calls from what I saw in the Pats vs Uni game... Yeah the ref in that game seemed to do alright, but the epping v dragons bloke. Lost control at times and had poor responses or none at all for some of the challenges. I was trying to keep an eye on both games but heard more coming from the epping v dragons game which kept me looking at their game. Good game to watch actually

Mark Clattenberg
wrote on 24-Aug-19 20:05

refs Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Mark Clattenberg Wrote: > > > > > > > Do you know all the refs Mark? > > > > I won't be disclosing them to you mate if > that's > > what you're implying > > > Not what I'm implying at all. I'm assuming from > your posts that you do know some of them. I'm > simply interested if you know them well and how > they normally ref. For what it's worth I actually > know "V...g" who was the ref in the Epping Dragons > game today. Seen him a few times now, a more > consistent player than referee in my opinion. Just > interested to know your thoughts. Sorry I asked Fair enough mate. There's a limited amount to what I can say and what I can't as I don't want to thread over the professional line aye (GHFA/GHFRA do carefully look at these threads) VK is someone I know really well and have refereed with on multiple occasions. He refereed a tough match. The Epping vs Macquarie game was always going to be a physical, aggressive, gritty, niggly game and he didn't lose control of the game from what I saw and never looked like doing so. All the major decisions I agreed with. Some minor calls that I didn't but most of the time, incidents were on the other side of play to properly judge. The reality is that referee's aint going to always please everyone. Overall, he talked to the players alot,and tried to keep them on the field as much as his jurisdictions allowed him to. That is what a referee is meant to do. I mostly watched the Pats game though as I'm a big fan of Juice. He may not run as much as one might desire, but he understands player management and how the flow of a game should operate. Players respect that so much (as you will see from the applause he gets from the Prems Forum).

refs
wrote on 24-Aug-19 20:08

Mark Clattenberg Wrote: > > > > Do you know all the refs Mark? > > I won't be disclosing them to you mate if that's > what you're implying Not what I'm implying at all. I'm assuming from your posts that you do know some of them. I'm simply interested if you know them well and how they normally ref. For what it's worth I actually know "V...g" who was the ref in the Epping Dragons game today. Seen him a few times now, a more consistent player than referee in my opinion. Just interested to know your thoughts. Sorry I asked

Saint
wrote on 24-Aug-19 20:09

Saints deserved to win, but Redbacks took their chances. Can’t argue with the result

refs
wrote on 24-Aug-19 21:02

Mark Clattenberg Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > refs Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Mark Clattenberg Wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Do you know all the refs Mark? > > > > > > I won't be disclosing them to you mate if > > that's > > > what you're implying > > > > > > Not what I'm implying at all. I'm assuming from > > your posts that you do know some of them. I'm > > simply interested if you know them well and how > > they normally ref. For what it's worth I > actually > > know "V...g" who was the ref in the Epping > Dragons > > game today. Seen him a few times now, a more > > consistent player than referee in my opinion. > Just > > interested to know your thoughts. Sorry I asked > > Fair enough mate. There's a limited amount to what > I can say and what I can't as I don't want to > thread over the professional line aye (GHFA/GHFRA > do carefully look at these threads) > > VK is someone I know really well and have refereed > with on multiple occasions. He refereed a tough > match. The Epping vs Macquarie game was always > going to be a physical, aggressive, gritty, niggly > game and he didn't lose control of the game from > what I saw and never looked like doing so. All the > major decisions I agreed with. Some minor calls > that I didn't but most of the time, incidents were > on the other side of play to properly judge. The > reality is that referee's aint going to always > please everyone. Overall, he talked to the players > alot,and tried to keep them on the field as much > as his jurisdictions allowed him to. That is what > a referee is meant to do. > > I mostly watched the Pats game though as I'm a big > fan of Juice. He may not run as much as one might > desire, but he understands player management and > how the flow of a game should operate. Players > respect that so much (as you will see from the > applause he gets from the Prems Forum). Nah I understand that mate, appreciate your contributions on this forum and I don't want you to get in hot water over your comments. From what I've read and what I've heard (I wasn't at the game) VK was inconsistent in his handing out of yellows. Some were fair, others shouldn't have been given and on a couple of occasions he should have done more. What did you make of the yellow cards he handed out? And the incident on the sideline? (I couldn't make sense of what I was told actually happened)

Thanks Mark
wrote on 24-Aug-19 21:08

Mark Clattenberg Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > The yellow cards I can't comment on because of two > things: > 1. I didn't see all of them and it's not for me as > a fellow referee to critique every aspect of the > game > 2. The ones I did see, regardless about whether > you agree with them or not, it's about > understanding why the referee has given a caution. > When I hear people talk about referee's being > inconsistent with cards being given out (I hear > this alot no matter who I watch or who I referee), > there are different contexts around why a card is > given. For example, a player might lightly tap a > player around the ankles but if its the 6th of 8th > time he has committed a foul, no matter how > innocent that challenge is, its going to be a > caution for persistent infringement of the law > (Y3). There are other times because of the heat of > the match, the referee will not flow the game as > much and be more stern on challenges (in order to > make sure that the game does not go out of order). > Due to the context of the heated match, he gave > out yellows for more 'frowned upon' decisions > based on that. Times when he could of > double-yellowed, he used his game player > management in sternly talking to them. He kept > players on the pitch as much as possible without > losing control of the match. I admire that. There > are times when I reflect this season where I could > of used such management (I've given out the most > red cards especially second yellows than any other > referee in the competition by far). Great use of > skill. > Others will disagree and thats fine. I'm coming > from a referee's perspective. I thought he > balanced out both use of cards and use of talk > well. But again, others might disagree. > > As for the all in brawl I can only comment from > what I saw up from the stands. EPP player got > fouled off the ball and off the pitch (careless > challenge). EPP player has a couple of words and a > slight push towards the MCS player that fouled > him, then MCS bench erupts. Alot of players from > both sides crowd around making it hard for me to > see the full incident. EPP player either got > pushed violently/punched/something of the accord > by apparently the MCS manager (referee identified > him as the culprit). Cheers Mark, it's good to have a referee's perspective and knowledge on the forum. Last question, are there situations when referees base decisions (cards) on player safety rather than on the written rules? I.E. challenges on goalkeepers, challenges in the air, severity of injury if a player is injured?

Mark Clattenberg
wrote on 24-Aug-19 21:09

refs Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Mark Clattenberg Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > refs Wrote: > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > ----- > > > Mark Clattenberg Wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you know all the refs Mark? > > > > > > > > I won't be disclosing them to you mate if > > > that's > > > > what you're implying > > > > > > > > > Not what I'm implying at all. I'm assuming > from > > > your posts that you do know some of them. I'm > > > simply interested if you know them well and > how > > > they normally ref. For what it's worth I > > actually > > > know "V...g" who was the ref in the Epping > > Dragons > > > game today. Seen him a few times now, a more > > > consistent player than referee in my opinion. > > Just > > > interested to know your thoughts. Sorry I > asked > > > > Fair enough mate. There's a limited amount to > what > > I can say and what I can't as I don't want to > > thread over the professional line aye > (GHFA/GHFRA > > do carefully look at these threads) > > > > VK is someone I know really well and have > refereed > > with on multiple occasions. He refereed a tough > > match. The Epping vs Macquarie game was always > > going to be a physical, aggressive, gritty, > niggly > > game and he didn't lose control of the game > from > > what I saw and never looked like doing so. All > the > > major decisions I agreed with. Some minor calls > > that I didn't but most of the time, incidents > were > > on the other side of play to properly judge. > The > > reality is that referee's aint going to always > > please everyone. Overall, he talked to the > players > > alot,and tried to keep them on the field as > much > > as his jurisdictions allowed him to. That is > what > > a referee is meant to do. > > > > I mostly watched the Pats game though as I'm a > big > > fan of Juice. He may not run as much as one > might > > desire, but he understands player management > and > > how the flow of a game should operate. Players > > respect that so much (as you will see from the > > applause he gets from the Prems Forum). > > > Nah I understand that mate, appreciate your > contributions on this forum and I don't want you > to get in hot water over your comments. > > From what I've read and what I've heard (I wasn't > at the game) VK was inconsistent in his handing > out of yellows. Some were fair, others shouldn't > have been given and on a couple of occasions he > should have done more. > What did you make of the yellow cards he handed > out? And the incident on the sideline? (I couldn't > make sense of what I was told actually happened) The yellow cards I can't comment on because of two things: 1. I didn't see all of them and it's not for me as a fellow referee to critique every aspect of the game 2. The ones I did see, regardless about whether you agree with them or not, it's about understanding why the referee has given a caution. When I hear people talk about referee's being inconsistent with cards being given out (I hear this alot no matter who I watch or who I referee), there are different contexts around why a card is given. For example, a player might lightly tap a player around the ankles but if its the 6th of 8th time he has committed a foul, no matter how innocent that challenge is, its going to be a caution for persistent infringement of the law (Y3). There are other times because of the heat of the match, the referee will not flow the game as much and be more stern on challenges (in order to make sure that the game does not go out of order). Due to the context of the heated match, he gave out yellows for more 'frowned upon' decisions based on that. Times when he could of double-yellowed, he used his game player management in sternly talking to them. He kept players on the pitch as much as possible without losing control of the match. I admire that. There are times when I reflect this season where I could of used such management (I've given out the most red cards especially second yellows than any other referee in the competition by far). Great use of skill. Others will disagree and thats fine. I'm coming from a referee's perspective. I thought he balanced out both use of cards and use of talk well. But again, others might disagree. As for the all in brawl I can only comment from what I saw up from the stands. EPP player got fouled off the ball and off the pitch (careless challenge). EPP player has a couple of words and a slight push towards the MCS player that fouled him, then MCS bench erupts. Alot of players from both sides crowd around making it hard for me to see the full incident. EPP player either got pushed violently/punched/something of the accord by apparently the MCS manager (referee identified him as the culprit).

Mark Clattenberg
wrote on 24-Aug-19 22:08

Thanks Mark Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Mark Clattenberg Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > The yellow cards I can't comment on because of > two > > things: > > 1. I didn't see all of them and it's not for me > as > > a fellow referee to critique every aspect of > the > > game > > 2. The ones I did see, regardless about whether > > you agree with them or not, it's about > > understanding why the referee has given a > caution. > > When I hear people talk about referee's being > > inconsistent with cards being given out (I hear > > this alot no matter who I watch or who I > referee), > > there are different contexts around why a card > is > > given. For example, a player might lightly tap > a > > player around the ankles but if its the 6th of > 8th > > time he has committed a foul, no matter how > > innocent that challenge is, its going to be a > > caution for persistent infringement of the law > > (Y3). There are other times because of the heat > of > > the match, the referee will not flow the game > as > > much and be more stern on challenges (in order > to > > make sure that the game does not go out of > order). > > Due to the context of the heated match, he gave > > out yellows for more 'frowned upon' decisions > > based on that. Times when he could of > > double-yellowed, he used his game player > > management in sternly talking to them. He kept > > players on the pitch as much as possible > without > > losing control of the match. I admire that. > There > > are times when I reflect this season where I > could > > of used such management (I've given out the > most > > red cards especially second yellows than any > other > > referee in the competition by far). Great use > of > > skill. > > Others will disagree and thats fine. I'm coming > > from a referee's perspective. I thought he > > balanced out both use of cards and use of talk > > well. But again, others might disagree. > > > > As for the all in brawl I can only comment from > > what I saw up from the stands. EPP player got > > fouled off the ball and off the pitch (careless > > challenge). EPP player has a couple of words and > a > > slight push towards the MCS player that fouled > > him, then MCS bench erupts. Alot of players > from > > both sides crowd around making it hard for me > to > > see the full incident. EPP player either got > > pushed violently/punched/something of the > accord > > by apparently the MCS manager (referee > identified > > him as the culprit). > > > Cheers Mark, it's good to have a referee's > perspective and knowledge on the forum. > Last question, are there situations when referees > base decisions (cards) on player safety rather > than on the written rules? I.E. challenges on > goalkeepers, challenges in the air, severity of > injury if a player is injured? Interesting question. You'll have ten bits of different advice or refereeing approaches regarding these elements of play as lot of this is quite subjective. 1. Challenges on goalkeeper - The key thing that the LOTG (Laws of the Game) says is that a goalkeeper cannot be challenged by an opponent when in control of the ball with his hands. So thats the first thing. Different things that referee's have to consider when an attacker challenges for the ball if the goalkeeper has possession of the ball... a) Does the attacker who's challenging, challenge in a fair manner. i.e. how does he approach the challenge? Has he got eyes for the ball? Has he come in with a lot of force? (reckless or with excessive force?). How does the attacker plan to win the challenge? (can he fairly win it without putting the goalkeeper in danger (does he come in with elbows, raised studs etc.) b) If the attacker does unfairly challenge him, does he show lack of attention, disregard or complete disregard for the goalkeepers safety (no card, yellow or red card). Its all subjective to the viewing of the referee. When both GK and attacker is challenging for the ball, most of the fouls against the attacker is because he's gone for a header and instead of heading the ball, he's made contact with the arms which unfairly disallows the GK from punching/receiving the ball. Or lean't in with elbows. 2. Challenges in the air - Same regarding goalkeepers. How do the players challenge for the ball. How do they attempt to fairly win for the ball? Clash of heads - referee stops play, no card. If a player has used arms, does he used his arms as a tool or as a weapon (when arms/hands hit players faces, is the hand clenched in a fist when the player connects, if so, red card). Where does the contact occur? The more vulnerable the area of the body (face particularly), the more likely a sanction will be given. Where does the player attempt to challenge from (from front, side or back)? That probably doesnt answer your question. Thats more a lesson of refereeing perspective there for ya haha But alot of those considerations that I have outlined are crucial when understanding injuries. How does the injury occur? Does it occur because of unfair contact. Does the injury bring evidence to confirm that the unfair contact made by the player warrants a yellow or more likely a red card? When two players challenge for a ball in the air, one uses his elbows/arms (fists clenched), the motion is done with velocity, its endangering the safety of the opponent via violent conduct (R2). Its a red card regardless whether theres an injury at present or not. The bleeding face/nose is what confirms to the referee that the violent conduct has occurred. There are other times when two players going for the ball at speed, make a simultanous thunderous hit with the ball and one comes off worse, does that mean the player should be sent off for Serious Foul Play? No. Sometimes the injury occurs because of the nature of fair play. Its the referee's job to make correct judgements on these incidents and make sure he doesn't give a sanction based on the injury alone but rather the nature of the unfair or fair challenge that led to the injury.

Hmmmm
wrote on 24-Aug-19 23:06

If Redbacks took their chances the score would have been more. Unfair disallowed goal, hit post and missed some sitters. Ryde chances were from outside the box.

Good luck
wrote on 25-Aug-19 07:06

Red backs were the best team by a country mile today! Ryde saints will get flogged in prems next year....

Pats
wrote on 25-Aug-19 09:00

I thought the refs we had yesterday did well. The big guy that did reserves was the best I’ve seen in a long time. He was consistent for both teams for the whole game and dealt with anything that could have blown up really well. The players had a lot of respect and goes along way to a really open game that wasn’t spoilt by a ref for a change. The first grade guy wasn’t bad either. Some dodgy calls but he managed it well. We’d be happy to have both of them again next haha.

Dodge
wrote on 25-Aug-19 12:05

Epping vs Mac Ressies yesterday was one of the best super League games ive ever seen. Pulsating. Unfortunately the ref was inept and lost control early on

Beecroft Barry
wrote on 25-Aug-19 12:09

Refs cracking under the pressure of the finals this season, this comes up every year, nothing new.

Lesson
wrote on 25-Aug-19 20:00

Hope ya’ll stuck around for the prems matches to see what kind of opposition you’re hoping to come up against. There’s clear daylight between the level between top 4 in prems and top 4 in SL.

YTB
wrote on 25-Aug-19 21:06

Look Mark, as mentioned above, I appreciate your willingness to provide referee knowledge on this forum and there's alot from this thread alone that's helped me to understand how referee's think. Saying that though, you can probably see from majority of the comments that there a lot of people on here who simply don't agree with your sentiments. If that game was just a normal premiership game, the referee would have lost total control of the game and there would have been fists flown from both teams and you know it. Lets go through the major moments shall we: 1. The push and shove - The Epping player (No.120) as you mentioned and as I also saw it from the other side, was fouled off the field of play near the MCS bench. The Epping player has clearly said something derogatory towards the MCS player as the whole bench is in an uproar. I agree with the referee's decision to send the coach off as he did from my angle, push one of the EPP players onto the ground violently however surely the referee needs to hand a yellow card to the EPP player for bringing the game into disrepute?? No.120 from Epping is a repeat offender in terms of stirring up other opposition with crude comments and off the ball shenanigans as you would know. He did the same thing when you reffed Epping vs Putney at West Epping (yes I recognised you and had a chat with you yesterday haha) and unfortunately (as you later admitted in that game) he got away with it and has always got away with it, every time I've seen or played against them. The referee had to sanction that player. He later got a booking in the second half and EPP would have been down to 10 men, running tired heading into extra time. That was a big call. If he properly deals with that incident fairly, the temperature of the game settles slightly and you won't have tackles flying in and all the stupid chat that follows with that. 2. Inconsistencies in calls. I understand your little teaching lesson haha and you've always tried your best to always give the ref the benefit of the doubt in every decision he makes (which I admire) but deep down, I know you would have dealt with situations differently. No.120 made a lot of careless challenges. It took the ref 7 challenges from him as well as the brawl to eventually hand out the yellow card and he never spoke to him once beforehand. Epping had 2 attacks that got broken down from a MCS defender that didn't receive a yellow card (Stopping a Promising Attack as you would say). The Epping captain barged into a MCS player that injured him severely. He had no intent for the ball. Should have received a red card. He lent in with a raised elbow and connected him hard in the stomach. If he were to receive a yellow as he did, surely he has to give him an absolute mouth-full to never attempt such a tackle as he did. You talk about talking with the players. Those are crucial moments that had no talking what so ever. There's much more to analyse but cant be bothered. I know you won't reply because of what you said in above comments but I know I wouldn't want him to ref a crucial match in the future. Thanks again for your contributions on this forum. Hope to see you next season refereeing firsts not ressies haha

Facts
wrote on 25-Aug-19 22:04

The reality is there will be no referees left soon... and that's a fact!

Mark Clattenberg
wrote on 25-Aug-19 22:04

Facts Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > The reality is there will be no referees left > soon... and that's a fact! Bingo.

Matt
wrote on 26-Aug-19 08:05

The standard of refereeing has also dropped dramatically this year. There seems to be a lot of mini Tom forests running around - with out the refereeing ability.

Maaaagic
wrote on 26-Aug-19 09:04

At the end of the day that final was an intense match with finals pressure and the ref had inconsistencies both ways that even the players on the park mentioned to each other. You can look back and think what if but the scoreboard doesn’t change and either team could have won in the shootout. Just give credit where credit is due to both teams playing for their seasons instead of nitpicking and whinging about what could have been. This is park footy not the English premier league YTB the sooner you understand that the easier it’ll be for you to move on.

Pats
wrote on 26-Aug-19 11:02

Matt Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > The standard of refereeing has also dropped > dramatically this year. There seems to be a lot of > mini Tom forests running around - with out the > refereeing ability. This is why the big guy was good. No power trips even when a player isn’t happy. He even spoken to me on the run after I blew up at what I thought was a free kick and said yeah he probably missed that an apologised for it. When up in my respect. Do they do managing players in ref courses. The refs have been up and down for us this season.

Impartial 2.0
wrote on 26-Aug-19 20:08

YTB Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Look Mark, as mentioned above, I appreciate your > willingness to provide referee knowledge on this > forum and there's alot from this thread alone > that's helped me to understand how referee's > think. > Saying that though, you can probably see from > majority of the comments that there a lot of > people on here who simply don't agree with your > sentiments. > If that game was just a normal premiership game, > the referee would have lost total control of the > game and there would have been fists flown from > both teams and you know it. > Lets go through the major moments shall we: > 1. The push and shove - The Epping player (No.120) > as you mentioned and as I also saw it from the > other side, was fouled off the field of play near > the MCS bench. The Epping player has clearly said > something derogatory towards the MCS player as the > whole bench is in an uproar. I agree with the > referee's decision to send the coach off as he did > from my angle, push one of the EPP players onto > the ground violently however surely the referee > needs to hand a yellow card to the EPP player for > bringing the game into disrepute?? No.120 from > Epping is a repeat offender in terms of stirring > up other opposition with crude comments and off > the ball shenanigans as you would know. He did the > same thing when you reffed Epping vs Putney at > West Epping (yes I recognised you and had a chat > with you yesterday haha) and unfortunately (as you > later admitted in that game) he got away with it > and has always got away with it, every time I've > seen or played against them. The referee had to > sanction that player. He later got a booking in > the second half and EPP would have been down to 10 > men, running tired heading into extra time. That > was a big call. If he properly deals with that > incident fairly, the temperature of the game > settles slightly and you won't have tackles flying > in and all the stupid chat that follows with that. > > 2. Inconsistencies in calls. I understand your > little teaching lesson haha and you've always > tried your best to always give the ref the benefit > of the doubt in every decision he makes (which I > admire) but deep down, I know you would have dealt > with situations differently. No.120 made a lot of > careless challenges. It took the ref 7 challenges > from him as well as the brawl to eventually hand > out the yellow card and he never spoke to him once > beforehand. Epping had 2 attacks that got broken > down from a MCS defender that didn't receive a > yellow card (Stopping a Promising Attack as you > would say). The Epping captain barged into a MCS > player that injured him severely. He had no intent > for the ball. Should have received a red card. He > lent in with a raised elbow and connected him hard > in the stomach. If he were to receive a yellow as > he did, surely he has to give him an absolute > mouth-full to never attempt such a tackle as he > did. You talk about talking with the players. > Those are crucial moments that had no talking what > so ever. > > There's much more to analyse but cant be bothered. > I know you won't reply because of what you said in > above comments but I know I wouldn't want him to > ref a crucial match in the future. > Thanks again for your contributions on this forum. > Hope to see you next season refereeing firsts not > ressies haha I can appreciate both points of view, the players and the referees. As mentioned in several threads on this forum we're lucky to have referees at all. And I don't like to blame referee decisions on the outcome of matches, although it is often tempting. It seems that everybody who has commented generally agrees that last weekend's match results were not hugely affected by referee decisions (besides maybe the STU v RED 1st grade game - which I didn't watch so won't further comment on). For me at the end of the day every team is going to cop some dodgy calls for infringements and gameplay generally. The thing that simply cannot be allowed to continue - witnessed this season and the last few seasons - is the referees not doing enough for player safety. I think we can all agree that everyone will (eventually) get over a few inconsistencies in a game, effecting a result or not. But, like the example provided above from YTB, players not being protected by the referees in situations which can and should be avoided (at the least post incident via card sanctions) is outrageous. Yes, as mentioned by Mark injuries can occur from fair tackles. But injuries sustained from ILLEGAL challenges like that described above is quite frankly disgraceful, not to mention painful both physically and finically (medical treatment, days off work, etc) for the player who suffers the injury and their team who are put at a disadvantage, regardless of the player's ability. It sends a message to the players left on the field that this kind of play is accepted and will be allowed to continue with only a yellow card or a soft chat to make it look like the referee is doing something about it. Actions speak louder than words in such situations. Is it just me thinking this? Your thoughts Mark?

Mark Clattenberg
wrote on 26-Aug-19 23:08

Love this discussion. It really depends honestly on the referee and what he sees and how he interprets what he's seen. The problem that I have with what you've mentioned in your last paragraph is that not every injury sustained from unfair contact is worthy of a red card. The referee still has to go through the proper guidelines when considering sending off a player for Serious Foul Play. The referee cannot be influenced and have a change of mind of a decision he will make sorely on the injury alone. Alot of those guidelines I have put forward already and are all listed in the LOTG. The other thing is the inconsistencies of player judgements on hard, physical football vs player safety. Take the Sadio Mane Red card vs Manchester City https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2pnJFtz6k4 The player clearly makes contact with the GK face with his studs. So based on 'player safety' and under guidelines of the LOTG, he should be sent off. However a majority will say, he was going for the ball and he had no intent to harm the player, he has just accidentally made contact with the player. If the player is sent off, the referee has 'ruined' a perfectly good game etc etc. Referee has a dilemma. Players aren't happy either way and will crucify him either way. Same with park football this year. As a more junior ressies ref I'm constantly tried this season to find the balance of encouraging hard, physical football and making sure player safety is paramount to the game. I know that SL/PL want to go in hard for challenges and its great to watch when executed well but because of the lack of skill level (compared to the NPL and A-League boys) there's more of chance of players getting it wrong and injuring someone over it. Does the referee then discourage such play and constantly stop play for potential dangerous tackles? Referee will never win either way. He just goes with his gut and how he interprets the flow of game and adjusts his refereeing to the heat of the game. YTB mentioned the Putney game and its true. And I admitted to Candy (PUT captain) straight way at half-time that I made a mistake. The reason why I missed it because of bad light but also not keeping an open eye on off the ball contact, instead watching the ball travel back to the goalkeeper (and thats where I missed the violent conduct). Player gets injured but because you miss that key foul that should have got a red, the game changes, the atmosphere changes and the game starts to get more niggly and less out of my control. This happens alot with referees. Its a common mistake we make. Positioning - being in the right position to see every challenge at the right angle, to judge whether the ball has been won fairly is the number one thing thats been shoved down my throat constantly. If I look at every major mistake I've made, its due to poor positioning. The best referee's are the ones who master this and then from that know how to manage players and different situations because of what they've seen.

Mark Clattenbrg
wrote on 27-Aug-19 00:06

managing players in ref courses yes, managing idiots in ref courses no...

Mark Clattenberg
wrote on 27-Aug-19 14:02

Agree with Mark Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Mark Clattenberg Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Love this discussion. > > > > It really depends honestly on the referee and > what > > he sees and how he interprets what he's seen. > The > > problem that I have with what you've mentioned > in > > your last paragraph is that not every injury > > sustained from unfair contact is worthy of a > red > > card. The referee still has to go through the > > proper guidelines when considering sending off > a > > player for Serious Foul Play. The referee > cannot > > be influenced and have a change of mind of a > > decision he will make sorely on the injury > alone. > > Alot of those guidelines I have put forward > > already and are all listed in the LOTG. > > > > The other thing is the inconsistencies of > player > > judgements on hard, physical football vs player > > safety. > > Take the Sadio Mane Red card vs Manchester City > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2pnJFtz6k4 > > The player clearly makes contact with the GK > face > > with his studs. So based on 'player safety' and > > under guidelines of the LOTG, he should be sent > > off. However a majority will say, he was going > for > > the ball and he had no intent to harm the > player, > > he has just accidentally made contact with the > > player. If the player is sent off, the referee > has > > 'ruined' a perfectly good game etc etc. Referee > > has a dilemma. Players aren't happy either way > and > > will crucify him either way. Same with park > > football this year. > > > > As a more junior ressies ref I'm constantly > tried > > this season to find the balance of encouraging > > hard, physical football and making sure player > > safety is paramount to the game. I know that > SL/PL > > want to go in hard for challenges and its great > to > > watch when executed well but because of the > lack > > of skill level (compared to the NPL and > A-League > > boys) there's more of chance of players getting > it > > wrong and injuring someone over it. Does the > > referee then discourage such play and > constantly > > stop play for potential dangerous tackles? > Referee > > will never win either way. He just goes with > his > > gut and how he interprets the flow of game and > > adjusts his refereeing to the heat of the game. > > > > > YTB mentioned the Putney game and its true. And > I > > admitted to Candy (PUT captain) straight way at > > half-time that I made a mistake. The reason why > I > > missed it because of bad light but also not > > keeping an open eye on off the ball contact, > > instead watching the ball travel back to the > > goalkeeper (and thats where I missed the > violent > > conduct). Player gets injured but because you > miss > > that key foul that should have got a red, the > game > > changes, the atmosphere changes and the game > > starts to get more niggly and less out of my > > control. This happens alot with referees. Its a > > common mistake we make. Positioning - being in > the > > right position to see every challenge at the > right > > angle, to judge whether the ball has been won > > fairly is the number one thing thats been > shoved > > down my throat constantly. If I look at every > > major mistake I've made, its due to poor > > positioning. The best referee's are the ones > who > > master this and then from that know how to > manage > > players and different situations because of > what > > they've seen. > > > I couldn't agree more Mark. The same players that > whinge that referee's aren't doing enough about > player safety, are the same players that will > surround the referee and accuse him of being soft > when they make the same hard challenges that lead > to injuries/cards. At the end of the day, people > just need to realise that you got to play by the > referee's whistle. I think a problem I have with > the junior refs is that they have no backbone. > They give into the pressure and the carrying on by > some and thats where the inconsistencies come > from. > Take the Prems Reserves game after the Redbacks vs > Saints game. How cautious was the referee there of > letting challenges go by? So many soft fouls and > no flow to the game whatsoever however as much as > the players didn't like it, they adjusted to him. > Thats what SL/PL teams need to do more... Yeah the backbone issue is of course going to be something that junior ressies refs will struggle with. Its takes time to really get use to that amount of pressure. And its different when an 18 year is yelling at you compared to a big ass 6 ft 4 bloke who has the eyes of a bull. I mean it took me 2 years from adjusting from refereeing juniors to refereeing seniors. It takes time, alot of exposure, alot of feedback from assessors and independent critical analysis to get use to it and be on top it. Some refs are better than others when it comes to this. It's funny that you mention the Prems game afterwards because I was lining that. Agree with how the teams approached the referee. Clear visible signs of annoyance but they learnt to adjust to the referee. Not a single word of dissent I heard from anyone that game. That's discipline and self-control implemented from both clubs and it was commendable. Congratulated both of them for it. I don't like the term soft fouls. A soft foul is presuming its still classed a foul... I mean the referee blew early free-kicks to set the tempo of the game. You discouraged the reckless behaviour and kept the temperature of the game down. You've said that there was no flow to the game... Perhaps in the first 10-15 minutes but after they realised the benchmark the referee set upon, they adjusted and the game flowed as it should have and it became a cracking game. Referee did well.

Agree with Mark
wrote on 27-Aug-19 14:07

Mark Clattenberg Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Love this discussion. > > It really depends honestly on the referee and what > he sees and how he interprets what he's seen. The > problem that I have with what you've mentioned in > your last paragraph is that not every injury > sustained from unfair contact is worthy of a red > card. The referee still has to go through the > proper guidelines when considering sending off a > player for Serious Foul Play. The referee cannot > be influenced and have a change of mind of a > decision he will make sorely on the injury alone. > Alot of those guidelines I have put forward > already and are all listed in the LOTG. > > The other thing is the inconsistencies of player > judgements on hard, physical football vs player > safety. > Take the Sadio Mane Red card vs Manchester City > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2pnJFtz6k4 > The player clearly makes contact with the GK face > with his studs. So based on 'player safety' and > under guidelines of the LOTG, he should be sent > off. However a majority will say, he was going for > the ball and he had no intent to harm the player, > he has just accidentally made contact with the > player. If the player is sent off, the referee has > 'ruined' a perfectly good game etc etc. Referee > has a dilemma. Players aren't happy either way and > will crucify him either way. Same with park > football this year. > > As a more junior ressies ref I'm constantly tried > this season to find the balance of encouraging > hard, physical football and making sure player > safety is paramount to the game. I know that SL/PL > want to go in hard for challenges and its great to > watch when executed well but because of the lack > of skill level (compared to the NPL and A-League > boys) there's more of chance of players getting it > wrong and injuring someone over it. Does the > referee then discourage such play and constantly > stop play for potential dangerous tackles? Referee > will never win either way. He just goes with his > gut and how he interprets the flow of game and > adjusts his refereeing to the heat of the game. > > YTB mentioned the Putney game and its true. And I > admitted to Candy (PUT captain) straight way at > half-time that I made a mistake. The reason why I > missed it because of bad light but also not > keeping an open eye on off the ball contact, > instead watching the ball travel back to the > goalkeeper (and thats where I missed the violent > conduct). Player gets injured but because you miss > that key foul that should have got a red, the game > changes, the atmosphere changes and the game > starts to get more niggly and less out of my > control. This happens alot with referees. Its a > common mistake we make. Positioning - being in the > right position to see every challenge at the right > angle, to judge whether the ball has been won > fairly is the number one thing thats been shoved > down my throat constantly. If I look at every > major mistake I've made, its due to poor > positioning. The best referee's are the ones who > master this and then from that know how to manage > players and different situations because of what > they've seen. I couldn't agree more Mark. The same players that whinge that referee's aren't doing enough about player safety, are the same players that will surround the referee and accuse him of being soft when they make the same hard challenges that lead to injuries/cards. At the end of the day, people just need to realise that you got to play by the referee's whistle. I think a problem I have with the junior refs is that they have no backbone. They give into the pressure and the carrying on by some and thats where the inconsistencies come from. Take the Prems Reserves game after the Redbacks vs Saints game. How cautious was the referee there of letting challenges go by? So many soft fouls and no flow to the game whatsoever however as much as the players didn't like it, they adjusted to him. Thats what SL/PL teams need to do more...

Hail Mark!
wrote on 27-Aug-19 15:06

What the heck, you must have been the linesman on the spectator/benches side aye? Agree about the discipline of both sides. There's definately a difference between Prems and Super League regarding respect for the referee. Every team par Epping Eastwood in Prems know how to adjust to the referee and barely have I heard this year of teams getting heavy suspensions due to illdiscipline towards the referee. Classic Epping Eastwood thugs have a cultural problem and deserved to lose points after continuous thuggery. North Epping have improved since they lost their ass-hole of a coach. Btw mate, you made an excellent call on the controvesial penalty call. I was with the Penno boys and clearly saw the little tug from behind that the attacker made to head ahead of the defender. Not many people saw it including the Penno boys that were shouting loudly at ya but you made the correct call. I disagree slightly with your last paragraph. I just thought he blew too many unnecessary fouls that weren't at all building tension. I agree upon the premise of calling fouls early to set the tone but too many and players get frustrated (albeit they maintained their frustration).

YTB
wrote on 27-Aug-19 16:00

Impartial 2.0 The problem that I have with that game is that the referee clearly was inadequate to referee the game. Now it's easy for Mark to defend the referee because he knows him and because he knows he can't publicly scruntise him in fear of discipline from his bosses but I know that he knows that, that referee was not capable to referee such a game. And this is my frustration with the referees association. If you ask anyone on the forum, you can quite easily tell that over the years Grant Reid and Tom Emelesus have been the most consistent, best referee over the many years. Juice now is up there with those 2. There was a young bloke who I didn't see this year (I think he's name was Andreas) who is on that list as well. So why don't the referee's assocation pick the best referees for the biggest games. I was told a couple of years back, that they do a rotating cycle whereby one referee cannot referee a grand final twice in his tenure. What absolute bollocks and its a stain to our game. The best referees should referee the best finals. Peroid. You give a chance to some young one with limited player management skills like old mate on the weekend and he can't take the heat of the game and there you have the potential to make those finals, all about the referee and not about the game.

Mark Clattenberg
wrote on 27-Aug-19 17:02

Hail Mark! Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > What the heck, you must have been the linesman on > the spectator/benches side aye? Agree about the > discipline of both sides. There's definately a > difference between Prems and Super League > regarding respect for the referee. Every team par > Epping Eastwood in Prems know how to adjust to the > referee and barely have I heard this year of teams > getting heavy suspensions due to illdiscipline > towards the referee. Classic Epping Eastwood thugs > have a cultural problem and deserved to lose > points after continuous thuggery. North Epping > have improved since they lost their ass-hole of a > coach. > Btw mate, you made an excellent call on the > controvesial penalty call. I was with the Penno > boys and clearly saw the little tug from behind > that the attacker made to head ahead of the > defender. Not many people saw it including the > Penno boys that were shouting loudly at ya but you > made the correct call. > > I disagree slightly with your last paragraph. I > just thought he blew too many unnecessary fouls > that weren't at all building tension. I agree upon > the premise of calling fouls early to set the tone > but too many and players get frustrated (albeit > they maintained their frustration). Thanks mate. Yeah it was a hard one to see but glad at least someone can confirm that it did happen! Yeah agree to disagree mate. I keep saying to coaches and teams that you gotta play to your referee. Study your referee. What is he harsh on and what does he wave away and adjust to that. If he's someone that's harsh on dissent, then zip up the mouths. If he's chill on challenges, then you calm the anxiety when attempting etc. etc. At this level, you probably need to learn to master the skill. Saves alot of frustration lol Oh come on JC. What do you think we do? Flip a coin and blindly choose whoever we want to ref such games, hold hands and sing kumbaya... Geez mate. There are proper processes that go in picking such people. If you don't like the referee and his style of refereeing, back luck champ. I mean it's like you're expecting them to be perfect. They aren't because they're human. They make mistakes. Guess what mate, so do you on the field but I don't see us criticise every error you make. You've made your point and its time to move on.

Imparitial 2.0
wrote on 27-Aug-19 17:04

Agree with Mark Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > > I couldn't agree more Mark. The same players that > whinge that referee's aren't doing enough about > player safety, are the same players that will > surround the referee and accuse him of being soft > when they make the same hard challenges that lead > to injuries/cards. At the end of the day, people > just need to realise that you got to play by the > referee's whistle. I think a problem I have with > the junior refs is that they have no backbone. > They give into the pressure and the carrying on by > some and thats where the inconsistencies come > from. > Take the Prems Reserves game after the Redbacks vs > Saints game. How cautious was the referee there of > letting challenges go by? So many soft fouls and > no flow to the game whatsoever however as much as > the players didn't like it, they adjusted to him. > Thats what SL/PL teams need to do more... I disagree. Certainly there are some hypocrites who have a whinge and surround the referee going on about player safety (in fact a few teams come to mind...) when they or a teammates cops it, but then go and dish it out themselves. Not every player is like that. Having said that it also goes back to what I mentioned earlier about the message it sends to the players left on the field. If the initial challenge goes with little or no punishment, the other players or the injured player (if still on the field), with revenge in mind think that the referee has allowed it and they'll be able to get away with it too. I know I can't change the view of others, but I'll never accept other players interfering with a referee trying to look after an injured player. I've seen too many times players become injured resulting in weeks, sometimes months off football and on a couple of occasions days off work too as a direct result of foul play. On only a few of those occasions have I seen the referee take action which has settled the remaining players and lowered the likelihood of similar instances for the rest of the game. Additionally, the majority of these players who come to mind are those who if they make a hard challenge, regardless of whether it's fair or unfair play, are the first to check if the opposition player is okay and apologise if they think it necessary (if a fair challenge, injury is unlucky as Mark has suggested). For the record the players I'm thinking of are from a variety of teams in the comp. And credit to those players who, when they do cop some pain and receive an apology from the opposing player, accept the apology gracefully and then get on with the game. Going back to YTB's example, I didn't once see the MCS player approach the referee prior to receiving his game ending tackle... Mark and 'Agree with Mark' would you have made a different decision on this occasion to that of the centre referee? Or is a hit to the stomach with no intent for the ball (as per YTB's description) just a yellow? Similarly is the MCS player fouling #120 off the ball and off the pitch (Mark's description) just a foul? Or that which followed? Please when you read this, I'm not trying to be a smart-arse in asking these questions, just try to get a better understanding of your point of view.

SignUp
wrote on 27-Aug-19 17:06

To:Imparitial. Gladesville-Hornsby Football Association. GHFRA are on the hunt for new referees for 2020! This sounds like you! Please visit GHFRA.com.au early next year to learn more about the courses. Becoming a referee means you will be injured less often :)

lol
wrote on 27-Aug-19 17:07

Mark Clattenberg Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Oh come on JC. What do you think we do? Flip a > coin and blindly choose whoever we want to ref > such games, hold hands and sing kumbaya... Geez > mate. There are proper processes that go in > picking such people. If you don't like the referee > and his style of refereeing, back luck champ. I > mean it's like you're expecting them to be > perfect. They aren't because they're human. They > make mistakes. Guess what mate, so do you on the > field but I don't see us criticise every error you > make. You've made your point and its time to move > on. Hahahaha I wouldn't mind a bit of banter like that from the refs!

Impartial 2.0
wrote on 27-Aug-19 17:08

Hahaha SignUp I do appreciate your intended humour, but I've already done my time as a referee, albeit a while ago and in a different association - and admittedly I don't intend to get back to it soon! In my stint, I was lucky to not have too many issues regarding serious player injuries, but now my own view of some of my own decisions made back then have changed and I'm more aware now of the repercussions for players at this level both on and off the pitch when more serious injuries occur. I'm not injured (thankfully!) but as a coach (not in SL) and teammate of injured players I think a reasonable person can understand my concerned for player safety.

Mark Clattenberg
wrote on 27-Aug-19 18:01

Don't give up the day job Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Mark if you are the same bloke who was on the line > for the prem ressies then you were the bloke who > did our ressie in late june and you were > attrocious. > Stop trying to be everyones mate and do your job, > refereeing the game. > > Not sure how you expect Epping to react next time > you ref them too ig youre talking shit about their > players online So the only game I refereed in SL/PL for June was Epping vs Northern HFC on the last weekend of June and that was against Epping Reserves... So its funny. You've claimed that I'm being unprofessional towards Epping (even though Im not) and during that game I refereed, you claimed I was a referee for Epping and 'being mates' with them. So which one is it? And for the record, I've admitted publicly (on the forum and during even on this thread) and privately during and after a game, mistakes that I've made. I will downright admit that I had a terrible game. But I will take on your advice and try to do better for you fam... The reason I want to participate on this forum is to help players understand referees and for me as a referee to understand players so I can referee the best I can and cause little controversy within games. I aim to build relationships with players. Its the key for me because once I understand them, I know how to manage them on the field. I hope you understand.

Mark Clattenberg
wrote on 27-Aug-19 18:02

2 cents Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > i feel like your answers for 3 and 5 contradict > each other. if a player has a chance to play the > ball fairly but chooses not to doesn't that > indicate brutality? Not necessarily. Speed is a major factor and the contact of that the part of the body that hits the player is what determines brutality. Does he come in with more pace than is necessary or does he strike the player (elbow as was mentioned from YTB) when challenging? Both those factors indicate brutality IMO.

Mark Clattenberg
wrote on 27-Aug-19 18:03

Imparitial 2.0 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Agree with Mark Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > > > I couldn't agree more Mark. The same players > that > > whinge that referee's aren't doing enough about > > player safety, are the same players that will > > surround the referee and accuse him of being > soft > > when they make the same hard challenges that > lead > > to injuries/cards. At the end of the day, > people > > just need to realise that you got to play by > the > > referee's whistle. I think a problem I have > with > > the junior refs is that they have no backbone. > > They give into the pressure and the carrying on > by > > some and thats where the inconsistencies come > > from. > > Take the Prems Reserves game after the Redbacks > vs > > Saints game. How cautious was the referee there > of > > letting challenges go by? So many soft fouls > and > > no flow to the game whatsoever however as much > as > > the players didn't like it, they adjusted to > him. > > Thats what SL/PL teams need to do more... > > > I disagree. Certainly there are some hypocrites > who have a whinge and surround the referee going > on about player safety (in fact a few teams come > to mind...) when they or a teammates cops it, but > then go and dish it out themselves. Not every > player is like that. > > Having said that it also goes back to what I > mentioned earlier about the message it sends to > the players left on the field. If the initial > challenge goes with little or no punishment, the > other players or the injured player (if still on > the field), with revenge in mind think that the > referee has allowed it and they'll be able to get > away with it too. I know I can't change the view > of others, but I'll never accept other players > interfering with a referee trying to look after an > injured player. > > I've seen too many times players become injured > resulting in weeks, sometimes months off football > and on a couple of occasions days off work too as > a direct result of foul play. On only a few of > those occasions have I seen the referee take > action which has settled the remaining players and > lowered the likelihood of similar instances for > the rest of the game. Additionally, the majority > of these players who come to mind are those who if > they make a hard challenge, regardless of whether > it's fair or unfair play, are the first to check > if the opposition player is okay and apologise if > they think it necessary (if a fair challenge, > injury is unlucky as Mark has suggested). For the > record the players I'm thinking of are from a > variety of teams in the comp. And credit to those > players who, when they do cop some pain and > receive an apology from the opposing player, > accept the apology gracefully and then get on with > the game. > > Going back to YTB's example, I didn't once see the > MCS player approach the referee prior to receiving > his game ending tackle... > Mark and 'Agree with Mark' would you have made a > different decision on this occasion to that of the > centre referee? Or is a hit to the stomach with no > intent for the ball (as per YTB's description) > just a yellow? > Similarly is the MCS player fouling #120 off the > ball and off the pitch (Mark's description) just a > foul? Or that which followed? > > Please when you read this, I'm not trying to be a > smart-arse in asking these questions, just try to > get a better understanding of your point of view. Ok so for the record I disagree with YTB description of the incident. I had a clear straight parallel view of the incident. The Epping captain ran from 7 metres and collided with the MCS player without even remotely trying to gain possession of the ball. However he didn't lean in with an elbow and neither did that 'elbow' connect with any part of the body. So if I go by the guidelines within the LOTG: 1. Does the player show a lack of attention when making his challenge? YES. 2. Does the player make fair or unfair contact with the opponent? Unfair contact 3. Does the player have a chance of playing the ball in a fair manner? Yes but he didn't attempt to. 4. Does the player far exceed the necessary use of force when making the challenge? No - As stated I thought he came in with a bit of pace, but he wasnt sprinting. 5. Does the player use brutality against an opponent when challenging? No - What this means is does he make contact with the player that indicates brutality. If he indeed come in with a raised elbow/pointed elbow and attempted to use the elbow to harm the player, then YES send him off. I did not see a raised elbow/arm. Therefore No. 6. Does the clearly endanger the safety of the opponent? Yes BUT - It was the same force used as an attacker would use when he attempts to win the ball against the keeper, but instead of winning the ball, he charges into him. The GK (in this case the MCS player) was in the air and therefore is in more danger to be harmed but because of the low to medium speed the player came into him, he doesn't CLEARLY endanger the opponent. You can keep going through those guidelines and answer those questions, but already from these questions, I can clearly determine to me that a yellow card was sufficient enough. As I said earlier Impartial. It's all subjective to the referee. Referee's value player safety. We just have to properly see incidents and then based on those guidelines from the LOTG, make the right decision. Guess what that player is injured for a bit of time from unfair contact however the unfair contact was reckless not dangerous or used with excessive force and therefore means a yellow card is shown not a red card. I don't think I can add anymore to this discussion then what I've already posted. If I see you on the weekend, then we can chat more.

2 cents
wrote on 27-Aug-19 18:04

i feel like your answers for 3 and 5 contradict each other. if a player has a chance to play the ball fairly but chooses not to doesn't that indicate brutality?

hahahah
wrote on 27-Aug-19 18:07

Don't give up the day job Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Mark if you are the same bloke who was on the line > for the prem ressies then you were the bloke who > did our ressie in late june and you were > attrocious. > Stop trying to be everyones mate and do your job, > refereeing the game. > > Not sure how you expect Epping to react next time > you ref them too ig youre talking shit about their > players online Jog on you flog. Mark, don't worry about this flog. Majority of us appreciate your honesty and your knowledge on this forum. There's a lot I've learn't and I didn't realise how many considerations one has to think about when making decisions. #stopbowingtocolonel #bowtomark #howsthekfc

Don't give up the day job
wrote on 27-Aug-19 18:08

Mark if you are the same bloke who was on the line for the prem ressies then you were the bloke who did our ressie in late june and you were attrocious. Stop trying to be everyones mate and do your job, refereeing the game. Not sure how you expect Epping to react next time you ref them too ig youre talking shit about their players online

Respect
wrote on 27-Aug-19 22:07

Most referees do a good job with enforcing the rules. Ok some have interesting interpretations and can be care happy but it is the player managing that is terrible. Why do Grant and Tom and juice and one of the other young guys don’t his name, handle players so much better. Be interesting to know how many cards these guys have handed out and how many sin bins they’ve used.

THE ROCK
wrote on 28-Aug-19 11:09

In regards to the above, these refs, ref for different audiences. Ie first grade the game is allowed to flow alot more than ressies and tackles are penalised accordingly. The only issue i have had this season is the inconsistency in yellow cards being issues. One of our first grade players was issued 2 yellows in the same passage of play and sent off.( ie yellow, yellow, red) for apparently 2 yellow card worthy infringements(what a joke). Then once he came back from suspension, the same ref issued him 2 yellows in 10 mins(one being a sin bin). - This is the crap i would like to sort out. The refs that go on a ego trip, apart for this, refs have been pretty good.

TG
wrote on 28-Aug-19 12:02

Man management Rock man management

Player
wrote on 28-Aug-19 12:08

Don't give up the day job Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Mark if you are the same bloke who was on the line > for the prem ressies then you were the bloke who > did our ressie in late june and you were > attrocious. > Stop trying to be everyones mate and do your job, > refereeing the game. > > Not sure how you expect Epping to react next time > you ref them too ig youre talking shit about their > players online You seem to be a good sport and a top bloke! Seems like you wanted to expose Mark via your email link there. Mark may not have caught on it but it appears you've linked your email to a referee of the association with his referee number and his initials. So either two things: 1. You've mistaken Mark with this referee (they are two different referees and two people I know) and attempted to expose him. I don't know how you've managed to stuff that up because the two have different skin colour!!! 2. Or you did recognise Mark and tried to impersonate another referee (that you clearly know well) to embarrass him publicly on the forum. Either way, just shows that you're a sore loser who loves a good cry. Kleenex pocket tissues are on special at Woolworths buddy. You might want to buy some for those salty tears smh

refs
wrote on 28-Aug-19 16:08

TG Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Man management Rock man management This. Someone asked why Grant, Tom and some others are leagues ahead of others. Its this. They know how to manage players better than anyone else. I've hardly in all my years playing/observing, seen these two dish out cards for dissent and swearing. They know how to keep a lid on it and control players without losing their own authority on the game. I wonder how these refs get educated and instructed by the big dogs? Do Prems/Super League referees get taught how to manage players on a regular basis? I mean from what Mark's been saying, he independently is trying to work on this (credit to him as well). Surely you're getting more support/training from higher up though? I heard that Anderson and old mate Forrest Gump are the training masters. That would explain alot. Juice is interesting. He gave a lot to referees as a player so he probably knows how to take it as a referee but from the sounds of it and especially on the weekend, he doesn't probably get too much because of the respect he gets from all the players... I find in general, there are not many older referees who are decent in first grade. Tom, Grant and Blisso are the top 3 older guys I've seen that I would be comfortable having as a ref. The others are too slow and then get tripped when defending decisions they clearly havent seen because of how slow they are. Though the younger referees (as Mark mentioned) probably need to learn to grow a better backbone, I much prefer them; those who can at least run and keep up to play, referee first grade... Surely I'm not the only one who thinks this? Juice, gives us your thoughts. What have you learn't that has made you so popular amongst everyone?

Impartial 2.0
wrote on 28-Aug-19 19:05

YTB Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Impartial 2.0 > The problem that I have with that game is that the > referee clearly was inadequate to referee the > game. Now it's easy for Mark to defend the referee > because he knows him and because he knows he > can't publicly scruntise him in fear of discipline > from his bosses but I know that he knows that, > that referee was not capable to referee such a > game. And this is my frustration with the referees > association. If you ask anyone on the forum, you > can quite easily tell that over the years Grant > Reid and Tom Emelesus have been the most > consistent, best referee over the many years. > Juice now is up there with those 2. There was a > young bloke who I didn't see this year (I think > he's name was Andreas) who is on that list as > well. So why don't the referee's assocation pick > the best referees for the biggest games. I was > told a couple of years back, that they do a > rotating cycle whereby one referee cannot referee > a grand final twice in his tenure. What absolute > bollocks and its a stain to our game. The best > referees should referee the best finals. Peroid. > You give a chance to some young one with limited > player management skills like old mate on the > weekend and he can't take the heat of the game and > there you have the potential to make those finals, > all about the referee and not about the game. Sorry YTB, I must have missed this in the thread. I agree with you, I don't think it was the best decision to have him referee that match. I don't know the selection process surrounding the appointment of referees to final series matches - I'm sure Mark could clarify this process for us. I'm all for referees being given the opportunity to gain experience at this level, after all how can anyone improve if they aren't given an opportunity? However in this case, I agree with you, this referee wasn't ready for it. Let him referee finals but at a lower level, i.e. all age or younger age groups. There were plenty of other games on that weekend. Alternatively, stick him on the sideline and have the opportunity to watch an experienced referee at work. A likely outcome of this is that the discussion on this thread becomes about the fantastic football games that took place on the weekend (as I'm sure was intended by the first few posts) rather than what it has become, a discussion about how to referee - which I put my hand up and take some responsibility for fuelling

Impartial 2.0
wrote on 28-Aug-19 20:03

ShutUp Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > You must be a dragons player... get over it pal! I > will repeat what YOU said earlier on: > > "...we're lucky to have referees at all. And I > don't like to blame referee decisions on the > outcome of matches, although it is often tempting. > It seems that everybody who has commented > generally agrees that last weekend's match results > were not hugely affected by referee decisions..." Fair guess, but no. I'm not connected to any teams in the finals actually, although I know some of the players involved. I can understand your logic there. However, your logic regarding what I said earlier is clear flawed. My point is about player safety, not the outcome of the match. I don't think either team, EPP or MCS can complain (or have complained) about the outcome of the match. Maybe have a read of the earlier comments champ

D
wrote on 28-Aug-19 20:05

ShutUp Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Did you watch both games at once like YTB did but > still think you can analyse the whole game? or are > you another reff on here trying to stir the pot? I > would be very suprised if that MCS defender who > went off hurt at the end of the game not feature > this Saturday. He is less than 50% chance of playing this Saturday due to his ribs

Impartial 2.0
wrote on 28-Aug-19 20:06

ShutUp Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Did you watch both games at once like YTB did but > still think you can analyse the whole game? or are > you another reff on here trying to stir the pot? I > would be very suprised if that MCS defender who > went off hurt at the end of the game not feature > this Saturday. Q1 - No, I was there for both games, but mainly watched the EPP V MCS game, as I knew more of the players involved in it. Sure, I can't analyse the whole game, but again I've never claimed to do so. Q2 - I'll repeat, I used to be a referee, a while ago and in a different association. I am no longer a referee, but a coach and player. So now my turn to guess and I'm happy to be corrected: would you be a Pats reserves player who is playing MCS at the weekend? Regardless, I agree with your comment. If he's fit I'd say he'll play, presumably he's a regular in their team and they'd want to start him.

Juice ()
wrote on 28-Aug-19 20:06

refs Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > TG Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Man management Rock man management > > This. Someone asked why Grant, Tom and some others > are leagues ahead of others. Its this. They know > how to manage players better than anyone else. > I've hardly in all my years playing/observing, > seen these two dish out cards for dissent and > swearing. They know how to keep a lid on it and > control players without losing their own authority > on the game. I wonder how these refs get educated > and instructed by the big dogs? Do Prems/Super > League referees get taught how to manage players > on a regular basis? I mean from what Mark's been > saying, he independently is trying to work on this > (credit to him as well). Surely you're getting > more support/training from higher up though? I > heard that Anderson and old mate Forrest Gump are > the training masters. That would explain alot. > Juice is interesting. He gave a lot to referees as > a player so he probably knows how to take it as a > referee but from the sounds of it and especially > on the weekend, he doesn't probably get too much > because of the respect he gets from all the > players... > > I find in general, there are not many older > referees who are decent in first grade. Tom, Grant > and Blisso are the top 3 older guys I've seen that > I would be comfortable having as a ref. The others > are too slow and then get tripped when defending > decisions they clearly havent seen because of how > slow they are. Though the younger referees (as > Mark mentioned) probably need to learn to grow a > better backbone, I much prefer them; those who can > at least run and keep up to play, referee first > grade... Surely I'm not the only one who thinks > this? > Juice, gives us your thoughts. What have you > learn't that has made you so popular amongst > everyone? I believe most players secretly admire that I am now a referee and can stand up to these players, 98% of SL/PL players wouldn't last half a game in the middle these days.

ShutUp
wrote on 28-Aug-19 20:06

Did you watch both games at once like YTB did but still think you can analyse the whole game? or are you another reff on here trying to stir the pot? I would be very suprised if that MCS defender who went off hurt at the end of the game not feature this Saturday.

ShutUp
wrote on 28-Aug-19 20:07

You must be a dragons player... get over it pal! I will repeat what YOU said earlier on: "...we're lucky to have referees at all. And I don't like to blame referee decisions on the outcome of matches, although it is often tempting. It seems that everybody who has commented generally agrees that last weekend's match results were not hugely affected by referee decisions..."

Mighty D's
wrote on 28-Aug-19 21:00

no dragon here thinks anything of that last incident, Mark's description is spot on!!! maybe read it again? "The Epping captain ran from 7 metres and collided with the MCS player without even remotely trying to gain possession of the ball. However he didn't lean in with an elbow and neither did that 'elbow' connect with any part of the body. So if I go by the guidelines within the LOTG: 1. Does the player show a lack of attention when making his challenge? YES. 2. Does the player make fair or unfair contact with the opponent? Unfair contact 3. Does the player have a chance of playing the ball in a fair manner? Yes but he didn't attempt to. 4. Does the player far exceed the necessary use of force when making the challenge? No - As stated I thought he came in with a bit of pace, but he wasnt sprinting. 5. Does the player use brutality against an opponent when challenging? No - What this means is does he make contact with the player that indicates brutality. If he indeed come in with a raised elbow/pointed elbow and attempted to use the elbow to harm the player, then YES send him off. I did not see a raised elbow/arm. Therefore No. 6. Does the clearly endanger the safety of the opponent? Yes BUT - It was the same force used as an attacker would use when he attempts to win the ball against the keeper, but instead of winning the ball, he charges into him. The GK (in this case the MCS player) was in the air and therefore is in more danger to be harmed but because of the low to medium speed the player came into him, he doesn't CLEARLY endanger the opponent. You can keep going through those guidelines and answer those questions, but already from these questions, I can clearly determine to me that a yellow card was sufficient enough. As I said earlier Impartial. It's all subjective to the referee. Referee's value player safety. We just have to properly see incidents and then based on those guidelines from the LOTG, make the right decision. Guess what that player is injured for a bit of time from unfair contact however the unfair contact was reckless not dangerous or used with excessive force and therefore means a yellow card is shown not a red card."

Juice
wrote on 28-Aug-19 21:05

refs Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > TG Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Man management Rock man management > > This. Someone asked why Grant, Tom and some others > are leagues ahead of others. Its this. They know > how to manage players better than anyone else. > I've hardly in all my years playing/observing, > seen these two dish out cards for dissent and > swearing. They know how to keep a lid on it and > control players without losing their own authority > on the game. I wonder how these refs get educated > and instructed by the big dogs? Do Prems/Super > League referees get taught how to manage players > on a regular basis? I mean from what Mark's been > saying, he independently is trying to work on this > (credit to him as well). Surely you're getting > more support/training from higher up though? I > heard that Anderson and old mate Forrest Gump are > the training masters. That would explain alot. > Juice is interesting. He gave a lot to referees as > a player so he probably knows how to take it as a > referee but from the sounds of it and especially > on the weekend, he doesn't probably get too much > because of the respect he gets from all the > players... > > I find in general, there are not many older > referees who are decent in first grade. Tom, Grant > and Blisso are the top 3 older guys I've seen that > I would be comfortable having as a ref. The others > are too slow and then get tripped when defending > decisions they clearly havent seen because of how > slow they are. Though the younger referees (as > Mark mentioned) probably need to learn to grow a > better backbone, I much prefer them; those who can > at least run and keep up to play, referee first > grade... Surely I'm not the only one who thinks > this? > Juice, gives us your thoughts. What have you > learn't that has made you so popular amongst > everyone? Interesting summation that ‘I gave it to refs’ ha. I thought I was alright. I questioned a lot, even the blatant obvious, but it was always in good spirit and jest, that I often had a laugh with refs over. I never shut up in a game and was less than friendly with my backline so perhaps you might be confusing that verbal dialogue. My thoughts, refereeing to me is like teaching. Especially park football. The easy stuff is knowing the LOTG and fitness. Next comes positional awareness and reading the game. That can be a little trickier as it’s about predicting where possible, to be as often as possible, to be in good position to make the most effective decision on a ruling. That takes time to perfect, if indeed it is ever perfected. The player management side is another level again. I liken this aspect to teaching. Everyone thinks it’s about content and outcomes and assessments etc. No... just as refereeing park football is, it’s about relationships. Relationships with players, coaches, even supporters. Remembering that, and looking at it from a choice theory perspective, as a referee, what is it I want from the game? what is it I want from the players, coaches and even supporters (let’s face it, a rowdy sideline can impact player decisions or more so bad decisions)? Most importantly I want a good game (not always possible of course), and a big part of that is how the players interact and how you as a referee interact with them. Predicting potential flare ups, de-escalating situations is so important. I’ve seen my fair share of referees obviously in my time. Many of whom still running around today. I’ve seen how to handle situations and I’ve also seen a great many number more ways how to not handle situations - honestly that was why I chose to pick up a whistle. Getting back to the notion of player management being about relationships. Many factors go into fostering good relationships. In park football, the most significant two are respect and communication. I maybe sarcastic at times in dialogue with players (and I do need to reduce that I know), but it’s always either in jest or good spirit. There is absolutely nothing confrontational with players whether it be in the tone of my voice, hand gestures or even body language. I see no point in yelling at players, demanding they come to me, or worse telling a player to shut up as I’ve witnessed in my time as a player. Players get frustrated, I get that - been there as a player, and when that happens player logic and emotion tend to wane lol. Kind of like a kid in school. I don’t mean to sound derogatory there but I use the logic, no matter what the player says or does, ‘be the adult’. Lastly, I guess there’s one ingredient that’s hard to teach a referee, just as it is a teacher... personality :) I get the frustrations of players and I maybe out of line in saying, that during my time as a player, I was so abhorred at the manner of many referees back then and the seemingly ‘power trips’ as I think someone has said on this thread, together with appalling respect for players (even when a player simply questioned a decision they were given a spray), that I decided to become a ref after retiring, not only to give back to the association, but to gain an appreciation for the ‘other side’. I will say it is an interesting culture, referees. But I’ll also say I wish I took up a whistle whilst playing given what I know now, on the thought processes and mindset of a referee. Would’ve helped immensely as a player understanding decisions and interpretations. If anyone is retiring from playing at season’s end, I strongly encourage it.

Juice
wrote on 28-Aug-19 21:07

Juice () Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > refs Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > TG Wrote: > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > ----- > > > Man management Rock man management > > > > This. Someone asked why Grant, Tom and some > others > > are leagues ahead of others. Its this. They > know > > how to manage players better than anyone else. > > I've hardly in all my years playing/observing, > > seen these two dish out cards for dissent and > > swearing. They know how to keep a lid on it and > > control players without losing their own > authority > > on the game. I wonder how these refs get > educated > > and instructed by the big dogs? Do Prems/Super > > League referees get taught how to manage > players > > on a regular basis? I mean from what Mark's > been > > saying, he independently is trying to work on > this > > (credit to him as well). Surely you're getting > > more support/training from higher up though? I > > heard that Anderson and old mate Forrest Gump > are > > the training masters. That would explain alot. > > Juice is interesting. He gave a lot to referees > as > > a player so he probably knows how to take it as > a > > referee but from the sounds of it and > especially > > on the weekend, he doesn't probably get too > much > > because of the respect he gets from all the > > players... > > > > I find in general, there are not many older > > referees who are decent in first grade. Tom, > Grant > > and Blisso are the top 3 older guys I've seen > that > > I would be comfortable having as a ref. The > others > > are too slow and then get tripped when > defending > > decisions they clearly havent seen because of > how > > slow they are. Though the younger referees (as > > Mark mentioned) probably need to learn to grow > a > > better backbone, I much prefer them; those who > can > > at least run and keep up to play, referee first > > grade... Surely I'm not the only one who thinks > > this? > > Juice, gives us your thoughts. What have you > > learn't that has made you so popular amongst > > everyone? > > > I believe most players secretly admire that I am > now a referee and can stand up to these players, > 98% of SL/PL players wouldn't last half a game in > the middle these days. Nice try imposter haha. Only one juice :)

MightyDs
wrote on 28-Aug-19 21:07

Don't watch us next time and find a new hobby please. You are that toxic coach who walks up to the reffs every weeks before the game.

Impartial 2.0
wrote on 28-Aug-19 21:09

MightyDs Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Don't watch us next time and find a new hobby > please. You are that toxic coach who walks up to > the reffs every weeks before the game. I'm just raising an issue that I feel strongly about, like everyone else who cares enough to post on the forum. This issue has effected one of your own players. For the record I've never once approached a referee before a game. Afterwards, yes as a coach concerned for my players if they've been injured or if I've felt that they could have been through foul play - not unlike most other coaches. And I've always thanked them for refereeing, because I know it's a hard job, regardless of whether I've agreed with their decisions or not. Clearly I'll never get through to some people.

Impartial 2.0
wrote on 28-Aug-19 22:02

Mighty D's Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > no dragon here thinks anything of that last > incident, Mark's description is spot on!!! maybe > read it again? > > "The Epping captain ran from 7 metres and collided > with the MCS player without even remotely trying > to gain possession of the ball. However he didn't > lean in with an elbow and neither did that 'elbow' > connect with any part of the body. So if I go by > the guidelines within the LOTG: > 1. Does the player show a lack of attention when > making his challenge? YES. > 2. Does the player make fair or unfair contact > with the opponent? Unfair contact > 3. Does the player have a chance of playing the > ball in a fair manner? Yes but he didn't attempt > to. > 4. Does the player far exceed the necessary use of > force when making the challenge? No - As stated I > thought he came in with a bit of pace, but he > wasnt sprinting. > 5. Does the player use brutality against an > opponent when challenging? No - What this means is > does he make contact with the player that > indicates brutality. If he indeed come in with a > raised elbow/pointed elbow and attempted to use > the elbow to harm the player, then YES send him > off. I did not see a raised elbow/arm. Therefore > No. > 6. Does the clearly endanger the safety of the > opponent? Yes BUT - It was the same force used as > an attacker would use when he attempts to win the > ball against the keeper, but instead of winning > the ball, he charges into him. The GK (in this > case the MCS player) was in the air and therefore > is in more danger to be harmed but because of the > low to medium speed the player came into him, he > doesn't CLEARLY endanger the opponent. > > You can keep going through those guidelines and > answer those questions, but already from these > questions, I can clearly determine to me that a > yellow card was sufficient enough. > > As I said earlier Impartial. It's all subjective > to the referee. Referee's value player safety. We > just have to properly see incidents and then based > on those guidelines from the LOTG, make the right > decision. Guess what that player is injured for a > bit of time from unfair contact however the unfair > contact was reckless not dangerous or used with > excessive force and therefore means a yellow card > is shown not a red card." I suppose your injured player, with a less than 50% chance of playing this weekend agrees Mighty D?

The show goes on and on and on and on...
wrote on 28-Aug-19 22:06

Impartial 2.0, mate, you've made your point loud and clear, civilly and with some experience to back it up. the silent majority agree with you, player safety is important. but it's never guaranteed. mark and others have offered their point of view to further explain that to you time to give it a rest now bud

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